Wednesday afternoon Coffee Talk

It all began with this seemingly innocuous Facebook Post:

Concerned Citizen No. 1: I am afraid of what the consequences of 3 more years of "Systemic Failures" will cost our country; Bomber on US flight Christmas day, dogs at Philadelphia airport can't sniff bombs, man bypasses security at Newark airport by entering an unlocked exit door.. They went to review security cameras only to find the cameras haven't worked in days! Who feels safe?

And the argument degraded thusly:

Concerned Citizen No. 2: In none of the failures cited has anyone died, unlike under Bush's watch where thousands of innocent Americans were killed on our own soil.

CC1: Thanks CC2. BTW, how is Obamas campaign promise of troop removal going? Don't even get me started on Guantanamo..... (I still wake up to the laughter from the Taliban on that one)

CC3: Im with CC2. At least the guy takes the tiime to think things out and not shoot from the hip

CC4: CC1 you just had to pull me in huh? Failures for Obama - he has many. And people have died under his watch. He is the commander in chief and soldiers have died under his command. So that statement is false. I am glad people say its so wonderful that Obama takes time to think. Meanwhile people are dying while he thinks about his response to his General. At the same time he is ramming healthcare down our throats. No thought there! I could go on and on. Someone tell me one good thing he has done for our country. I would love to hear it. You Bush blamers are all the same. He was not perfect, no one is, but he loves his country and did a lot of good. He never apologized to anyone or any country either. Check your history books, other countries need us and our military. They crave to have our freedoms. Its funny how Obama has plenty of time to play golf and vacation but can't find the time to work on national defense. (I believe the # is 87 rounds of golf this year and a trip to Hawaii that could not be cut short even though our borders had been crossed again by the Taliban). Everyone scoffed at how much time Bush spent at Camp David and at his ranch "vacationing". They failed to mention he almost always did so with his cabinet and or top advisers. Some vacation. Obama, not so - he needs time away with the family, or time to lobby for the Olympics, or time to accept the Nobel prize (a joke by the way), or time to apologize...... Time away? You are the PRESIDENT you f^%$%ing idiot! Remember, you wanted this job and you work for us. It is time consuming, tiring, stressful and the like. Nobody said its easy but you wanted it anyway. Everyone needs time to recharge the batteries but Obama takes it to new heights especially in the world we currently live in. I have plenty more to say but I don't have the time, plus that was exhausting. Thanks CC1.

CC2: Try to cast aside your black and white, Partisan views where Bush = great! and Obama = bad!. Seriously, how do you think history is going to judge Bush? "a great leader"? "a true intellect"? "he was for the little guy"? "he really helped America lead the world"? Give me a break. Anybody with half a brain (which unfortunately your admitted half of the electorate does not have) knows that Bush was a moron who was in Wall Street's and the Middle East's pocket. Follow the money. What you don't know fills books. Answer me this: why did we go to war with Iraq? Did we bring to justice the man who was responsible for 9/11? How did our economy do under Bush's failed policies? Sounds like you're against health care reform also. Typical. Obviously you have health care so I guess you figure no worries there. I for one will gladly sacrifice some of the excellent health care I receive so that we call all afford health care. You can denigrate Obama, the Nobel Prize, the goal of health care reform which this country has been working on for 80 years. You're probably - no, make that definitely -- against gay rights too. I know you're type -- narrow-minded and singularly selfish. Get over yourself and realize that there's a whole world out there, all of whom are not you, and they're looking to America for leadership on huge international issues like global warming. But then again I'm sure you believe global warming is a farce and that torturing enemy prisoners is ok. Next time you wipe tell Bill O'Reilly I said hi. Please, please, climb back into your hole and only come out when you're ready to accept others' points of view. Until then, FB away in your Parent's basement.

CC4: CC2 - number one. You do not know me. My parents' basement? Not so. I am married with two kids. I own two small businesses in SJ. I have healthcare but I fucking pay for it and 75% of it for my employees, they pay 25%. I welcome others points of view and I enjoy debating the facts. Fact is, you never gave me an answer in any of your garble about what Obama has actually done..... Bill O'Reilly, not my type. Global warming, a farce? Not sure but we don't know enough to call it global or climate anything. There is not enough accurate weather history to determine that. Plus no matter what we do as Americans and we have done plenty, that will never change India or China who create something like 80% of the world's pollution. We put these constraints on ourselves and force good companies out of business in th US and force jobs overseas. This is not good for you or me. Torturing enemy prisoners is good and helps our intel. This enemy would kill you in a heartbeat and step right over your dead body. End of story. They hate you, me, and anyone else who has our types of freedom. Narrow minded? No. Gay rights? Everyone as Americans has rights and what goes on behind closed doors is none of my business. So if someone is gay, so be it. It does not affect me. But when it comes to marriage, then yes I believe its between a man and a woman. Break it completely down to the most basic animal instinct and we were put here to pro create. Last time I checked, gays can not do that. Again it does change my daily life in the slightest, but it does not work. I am compassionate and would help anyone in need, gay or straight, but marriage is where I draw the line. Healthcare, needs reform - yes. But not the way they are trying to do it. Lift the restrictions and let the private sector fight harder for the business. Get the lawyers out of it and you will see the prices come down. Healthcare is a priveledge, not a God given right. And last I checked, no one is refused medical help in our country. Its illegal to do so. But I agree the system needs to change. And what exactly did Obama do to receive the Nobel? Hmmmmmm. Exactly....NOTHING! Which all leads me back to Bush in closing. A good man and a good president. Not great but good. Economy? Are you serious? Remember the President is just one man with veto power when the Libs controlled everything else. Bush and his admin tried to stop and reform the doom that was coming. Check the facts. They saw the bubble would break but the libs controlled everything and they said it was fine. Well you see where that got us. 9/11 was of course tragic. Could Bush have stopped it? I don't know but he did keep us safe for the remainder of his tenure. Don't forget about the national defense mess he inherited from Clinton or lack of national defense. Oh that's right, Billy boy was busy having his dick sucked rather than running the country or let alone tending to his family. A man willing to risk his family - his most precious gift, is certainly willing to risk the rest of us and our families.
"The Man" of 9/11. Again its many not just one and he was working on it. More than I can of Obama who wants to give away all of our strategy and try these people in US courts. Terrorism is everywhere and protection starts here. Did we get the man you speak of, no. But I hope and pray we get every other one here and abroad. If allowed, I know our military is capable. And finally, the war with Iraq. Lets see here. Oil - check. Because again we can't dare drill here and possibly keep jobs here. That would be evil and we could harm a bird or some stupid fish. This reverts back to one of my earlier statements. Genocide - check. Thousands of innocent people were being killed and again were not allowed the freedoms you and I enjoy. These people needed our help. Harboring terrorists - check. Training camps, flow of money, gov't protection, etc. Weapons of mass destruction - check. I know what you will say. The UN inspectors never found any. True but what they did find were all the parts and components to build them. And last time I checked, the UN has never really helped the US. I could go on and on but I must go back to work now to support more government causes. Plus my boss is calling. Oh wait, that's me. Be careful what you say before you know all of the facts. Again, you don't know me. But what I can say about me is that I provide jobs to people. Real jobs. People work for me, collect a pay check which provides food on their table and a roof over their head and their families. I am a hard working citizen who is an asset to the community and provide for my family and many others. I like to think I have good morals and sound values. I hope to instill these same values in my children. That is by working hard and teaching them nothing is given. You must earn it first.

What do you do? Who are you?

CC2: Blah blah blah. CC4, you must be very busy at work to have time to write all this. Perhaps you had called the Rush Limbaugh show and were on hold. Either way, dude, it's nothing personal. I may not be a lawyer (but then again I may be), but most of what you're talking about is boilerplate conservative bullshit. I've been down that road. Run for office, run a business, got my doctorate, worked for a Congressman. Worked for the most powerful man in new jersey. Do you even know who that is? Prob not. The point is, the answer to all these things is not contained in partisan political rhetoric. Half of what I said in my last post was calculated to see if you'd actually bite. Now that you did, I see that you are a typical boilerplate conservative. And for the record, I am no big Obama fan at this point either. He has not acted swiftly enough in bringing troops home from our failed wars. I am also not a liberal democrat who support higher taxes.
Have you not yet figured out that we've got a nuch of crooks on both sides of the aisle? And you're right, it wasn't just Bush's fault that the economy went south. However, his economic policy was devastating and fueled the fall. C'mon you know that. When God speaks to you again about why we were put here on this earth, can you please ask him for a new brain? One that doesn't just read Republican talking points? I gotta get back to work. Please respond after you've spent some quality time in the history and religion section of Barnes and Noble -- and don't confine yourself to just the section on Christianity.

CC4: Touche'. You are a funny man and I knew you were a lawyer. Seems as though you bit right back. And since you have plenty of time to answer, I guess not a very good lawyer. You talk just like an attorney. Some blow hard liberal who spent too much time in school and thinks he is God's gift to everything because he an esquire after his name. Get real. Remember, you attacked me. I never called out anyone. I was making statements in response to others. You made the personal attacks so I fired back. And because I am conservative, that makes it boiler plate bullshit? C'mon man. I answered questions based on my opinions. You have yet to answer a question (typical lawyer). Once again, you have no idea who I am, what I do or what and who I do and don't know. Who is the close minded one here? And yes there are crooks on both sides of the isle. I never said I was a Republican either.Come down off your pedestal oh great one. We get it, your an attorney. OOOOH and AHHHHHHH! You sound like an egotistical maniac who either didn't get enough time on your mom's boob or maybe it's because you are making up for other short comings?

CC3: The Main thing guys is we have to respect other peoples opinions unless they are like totally wacked... I watch Fox news even though it makes my Jaw tighten... I think both sides are lying... we are decending into intellectual anarchy..we have to pull it together or we are doomed united we stand divided we fall!

CC2: The thing CC3 is, it's the views of guys like your buddy CC4 who are getting our soldiers killed fighting these ridiculous wars. As a father of three boys, I am inclined to shine a light on their ignorance in the hopes that my boys won't be called to fight their stupid battles. If we weren't at war and living in this era of terrorist threats, his view would be merely juvenile, rather than dangerous. It's all good; I'm sure you're friend's a great guy. Oh and CC4, keep my mom's boobs out of this. You don't know her boobs and have never seen either one (right??) At least my parents didn't give me a first name that ends in a vowel. I mean, what's up with that?

CC4: CC2, two things are for sure: I am passionate and I have never seen your mother's boobs. My first name? You wish yours was as cool :-) We will agree to disagree. I merely wanted to debate the facts and or opinions. I respect both and debate them often with friends and family. Again its what makes our country great. Having that freedom. However, on your second to last comment I am not juvenile or dangerous. I have a son as well and if he chose to serve in the military, I would be proud. Concerned but proud. Same goes if he wanted to be an attorney - YIKES! My belief is all of our freedoms and the like are worth dying for and thats the truth. Is war ugly? Yes but its also sometimes necessary. There is no greater hero than an American GI. Freedom is not free and they lay their life on the line everyday for you and me. There is nothing I could do or say to ever honor ours troops enough.

CC2: Got it CC4. I would like to conclude with something witty and olive-branchy, but I just can't after your pro-military rant. I don't think you get points for being pro-military. That's just a "given". Do you realize that the Iraq war was over oil and retribution, and that the 9/11 attack was just a pretext for our Iraq war? You seriously think your son's life was worth losing in Bush's Iraq war? Iraq never attacked us. It is a PROVEN FACT that Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction. BOOKS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY CABINET MEMBERS AND THE PRESIDENT'S PRESS SECRETARY stating that the administration was trying to build a case and connect dots that weren't there in order to justify an Iraq way against "the guy who tried to kill [Bush's] daddy" (Those are Bush's words).
You have the right to your own opinion, as totally misguided as it may be. You do not have the right to your own facts.


And so, there it is. A unique exchange of ideas, with a blessed minimum of ad hominem attacks, shared between concerned citizenry of this great experiment we call America. Hope you enjoyed it. And now, a word from our sponsor.